New Zealand's high-grade sector close up

In January 2019, KangaNews invited representatives of New Zealand’s major government-sector funders to a roundtable discussion in Wellington. The discussion covered all the factors most relevant to these issuers in today’s market – including the global funding environment, supply-and-demand dynamics and the future of New Zealand sustainability financing.

PARTICIPANTS
  • Mark Butcher Chief Executive NEW ZEALAND LOCAL GOVERNMENT FUNDING AGENCY
  • Sam Direen Treasurer HOUSING NEW ZEALAND
  • Andrew Hagan Director, Capital Markets NEW ZEALAND DEBT MANAGEMENT, THE TREASURY
  • Andrew John Funding Manager AUCKLAND COUNCIL
  • Kim Martin Head of Funding Strategy and Engagement NEW ZEALAND DEBT MANAGEMENT, THE TREASURY
MODERATOR
  • Helen Craig Senior Content Manager and Deputy Editor KANGANEWS
THE BIG PICTURE

Craig It feels like we might be at a long-term turning point in global markets, especially in the context of renewed caution at the US Federal Reserve and the prospect that, by the Reserve Bank of New Zealand’s own admission, higher rates in New Zealand are further away than the bank previously anticipated.

DIREEN US Treasuries have clearly moved a long way in a very short space of time, with yields on 10-year Treasuries doubling to more than 3 per cent from less than 1.5 per cent in only a couple of years.

What we are seeing is a correction in a gradual upward trend as opposed to a long-term turning point, which isn’t a particularly daring call when you look at a chart over 100 years and observe that Treasuries are still emerging from historic low yields.

The outlook for the New Zealand economy appears to be more in sync with global peers, particularly when you think back to recent years when we had idiosyncratic boosts such as the Christchurch rebuild and rapid growth in net inward migration which drove domestic demand.

With leading indicators pointing to a softer growth outlook it’s easy to side with the view that the risk of inflation getting ahead of us, and thus the requirement for rate increases any time soon, is even more unlikely now than it has been in recent times. In saying this, I’m not convinced of the need for cuts if the economy is growing close enough to potential. Inflation looks to be low, stable and sticky and I don’t see additional monetary-policy stimulus shifting this any time soon.

MARTIN The most enduring theme over much of the last decade is lower rates than most people had anticipated. Even though we have likely seen the bottom for Treasuries I believe lower for longer continues to be a recurring theme.

When we look at New Zealand Treasury forecasts for the official cash rate, we have pushed back the potential for the first hike into 2020. Although some analysts are calling for the next move to be a cut, our team doesn’t see the evidence for this and still expects a hike.

BUTCHER New Zealand remains out of step with the rest of the world regarding monetary- and fiscal-policy settings. New Zealand interest rates have rallied over the last year while offshore interest rates have gone up. This makes things tricky.

New Zealand fundamentals certainly support low interest rates: inflation is low, growth is ‘okay’ and not threatening inflation, and we have a central bank that is very happy to let the currency do some of the work. I wouldn’t say this is a turning point as such – I think we are still kicking along the bottom of interest-rate settings.

I have been expecting interest rates to rise every year for the past five and global equity markets to slow for the past three – and they haven’t. It seems like all asset markets are moving into a new era of low interest rates and we have slightly higher valuations in other asset classes as a result.

DIREEN The longer this persists the more difficult it becomes to increase interest rates with any real speed. Small increases on very low rates have a proportionately larger impact on the average household with a decent-sized mortgage, particularly for those who have bought in recent years. We’ve seen very low appetite for any major correction in equities, so it doesn’t feel like the settings are there for any marked increase in interest rates.

“With leading indicators pointing to a softer growth outlook I think it’s easy to side with the view that the risk of inflation getting ahead of us, and thus the requirement for rate increases any time soon, is even more unlikely now than it has been in recent times.”

Craig With this in mind, how are international investors in particular thinking about the New Zealand high-grade market?

JOHN Investors continue to like the diversification provided by Auckland Council’s foreign-currency bonds. Our fundamentals have not changed and in this sense investors still like our credit.

MARTIN We were quite pleased overall with how offshore demand held up in 2018, despite the fact that yields moved below Treasuries across the curve as the year progressed.

Investors continue to be attracted to New Zealand’s strong fiscal outlook, the good institutional backdrop and steady but contained bond supply. Having said this, we can’t deny the fact that the proportion of offshore holdings of New Zealand government bonds (NZGBs) continued to decline last year and is now at the lower end of the range of the past decade, at roughly 50 per cent.

There are idiosyncrasies in specific bonds. We saw offshore holdings of shorter-dated bonds – the 2019, which is the line we are repurchasing, and the 2021 – decreasing. However, offshore holdings have increased in each of the on-the-run bonds – the 2025s, 2029s, 2037s and the 2040 inflation-linked bond we have been issuing into over the past year.

Direen Is there any notable difference in the current level of offshore holdings in the nominal and linker programmes?

MARTIN The value of holdings of the linker bonds remained steady over the course of the year. The decrease we saw was all in nominal bonds.

Duration preferences

New Zealand’s local high-grade issuers are encountering divergent duration preferences within their investor bases. These include different demand patterns on- and offshore and between real-money and balance-sheet buyers.

CRAIG Market conditions have clearly shifted, but what is happening with duration preference? Divergent views on relative and absolute rate direction might seem to imply no clear consensus on preference for short- versus long-dated issuance.

BUTCHER A key theme we have seen in the past year is offshore investors in New Zealand Local Government Funding Agency (LGFA) bonds shifting further out the curve to find additional yield.

It is a little surprising, but I think they are not treating New Zealand as part of a duration view within their global portfolios. We are an outlier and investors continue to be relatively yield-hungry.

MARK BUTCHER

We are seeing a reduction in demand for duration by domestic real-money investors. What’s interesting is that the third investor cohort – bank balance sheets – is actually moving out along the curve.

MARK BUTCHER NEW ZEALAND LOCAL GOVERNMENT FUNDING AGENCY
SUPPLY FACTORS

Craig The NZGB programme hasn’t experienced significant growth for some time but KiwiSaver contributions continue to grow. How much has the re-entrance of Housing New Zealand (Housing NZ) to the market helped supply keep pace with demand?

DIREEN The feedback we have received from investors in New Zealand, Asia and the UK is that they welcome the additional supply – and the fact that this is net new supply of around NZ$1 billion (US$690.8 million) per year is key.

Our investor base has been predominantly bank balance sheets so far. But we expect the depth and breadth of our investor base to grow over time. We have seen some interest from KiwiSaver accounts and a lot of them have already carried out credit work.

Mark Butcher made some comments at this roundtable last year around how important it is for local funds in particular to have liquid lines across the curve. This is something we will work on through taps as our bonds roll down the curve.

MARTIN Our forecast shows net-zero issuance of debt out to 2023 – that is, new issuance will offset maturities. Issuance occurs according to the government’s fiscal strategy, not demand. But investors should take some comfort that there will always be a minimum level of NZGBs on issue given the commitment the government has made to outstanding volume at not less than 20 per cent of GDP. The level is currently around 23 per cent and towards the end of the forecast period it will get closer to 20 per cent.

HAGAN Our programme is not affected by the minimum commitment until the final year of the forecast period, and even then only at the margin. In other words, 2023 will be the first year we will be issuing debt to support liquidity in the NZGB market rather than to fund fiscal priorities per se.

JOHN Auckland Council has a substantial funding programme due to NZ$26 billion of capital investment over the next 10 years. Our debt is currently around NZ$8.8 billion and is forecast to grow to around NZ$13.5 billion over the period. We have approximately NZ$1-1.5 billion per year to fund over the next 3-5 years. We have some big projects to fund over the forecast period – such as the CityRail link.

Investor feedback is they have appetite for Auckland Council debt. The fact that they have visibility of the pipeline is helpful, although they are conscious that delivery can sometimes be an issue.

BUTCHER Since we started issuing debt about six years ago we have placed NZ$1.3-1.6 billion of New Zealand Local Government Funding Agency (LGFA) bonds in each year. We issued NZ$985 million of bonds during the last six months of 2018 and around NZ$1.6 billion in the 2018 calendar year.

This is higher than in previous years, largely because the last remaining councils are joining the LGFA. Our market share is now around 85 per cent of all council borrowing. Councils have also been able to deliver capex closer to their plans than has been the case historically, necessitating a higher level of borrowing and refinancing existing debt.

Given the additional supply of LGFA bonds, our spreads did not compress as much to NZGBs towards the back end of the curve last year. We also issued a 2033 maturity.

We expect slightly higher-than-normal annual issuance volume to continue and we’re working on the projections now. There are still some unknowns – including around how much infrastructure will be funded directly from councils’ own balance sheets. But taking longer-term council borrowing plans into account, our annual issuance is likely to be close to NZ$1.4-1.6 billion.

Our short-dated lending to councils and our short-term bills issuance are at record levels. We have lent more than NZ$500 million to councils in the front end of the curve and short-term bills on issue are also close to NZ$500 million. We are pleased with how the market has handled the increase in short-term issuance as well as the additional long-term bond supply.

“Verification and certification costs are largely insignificant in the grand scheme of things. We believed these costs to be justified based on the value we would extract from issuing a green bond.”

Hagan We have significant short-dated redemptions about to fall due and we have also signalled that we want to have less reliance on the short-term T-bill market. Has this influenced demand for LGFA product or decision making?

BUTCHER Holders of our bills are 100 per cent onshore, equally split between bank balance sheets and domestic money-market funds. This has been quite surprising as we expected at least some offshore interest given LGFA bills pay 30 basis points more than T-bills. The offshore investors don’t seem to want to go through the process of rolling over three- and six-month bills, which again highlights their preference for the higher yield they find at the back end of the curve.

John Is some of the LFGA’s increased funding over the last six months partly due to prefunding the March 2019 line?

BUTCHER Yes, but this is not unusual. We also prefunded the December 2017 line in the six months before maturity date. Also, some councils are holding larger amounts of cash on their balance sheets, as well as borrowing long and taking advantage of attractive term-deposit rates from banks to invest.

It is worth mentioning that the additional borrowing includes the whole sector – not just across the ‘golden triangle’ of Auckland, Waikato and the Bay of Plenty regions.

John The council sector has seen a huge jump in capex. Does the LGFA expect to see a big ramp up in borrowing across the sector, as a result?

BUTCHER Possibly. But it depends how much of the borrowing is funded off balance sheets. At this point we really don’t know what this will look like. There will need to be prioritisation of capital projects due to capacity constraints. Our biggest concern is that councils won’t be able to deliver all the planned projects.

Infrastructure priorities

Investment in significant infrastructure projects – and a consequent funding need – is a significant component of the New Zealand high-grade bond-market story. Government-sector issuers say engaging with investors, including offshore, about changes in capex trajectory is a key part of their job.

CRAIG How much interest do investors, especially offshore, show in New Zealand’s infrastructure task and how the country intends to fund its infrastructure pipeline?

JOHN Domestic investors are well informed and, unsurprisingly, fully across developments in this regard. Offshore investors want to get a feel for what the challenges are. Even as the biggest city in the country it is more the New Zealand story that we try to sell, but there is a general acknowledgement that there has been considerable under-spend in infrastructure in Auckland.

BUTCHER We have an infrastructure deficit in New Zealand but the need to invest is not unique to us. It is also evident in the Australian states, for example. We all accept we need to make the infrastructure investment.

ANDREW HAGAN

My sense is that, because of the broad multiparty support for fiscal discipline, investors take the funding programme as a given. We do not take a lot of queries around whether a given government will change strategy and therefore increase funding requirements.

ANDREW HAGAN NEW ZEALAND DEBT MANAGEMENT
MARKET CONDITIONS

Craig The story that came through clearly this time last year was that local demand for New Zealand government securities in 2017 remained solid while conditions were more challenging for others. What were the main themes to come through in 2018?

BUTCHER The questions we constantly ask ourselves are: was it more challenging to issue bonds, to what extent have maturity preferences changed, is the investor base growing or shrinking and are we paying more to get our debt away?

We are probably the only issuer other than the sovereign that regularly tenders bonds – every 5-6 weeks. We are relatively flexible in our issuance strategy and will issue in the part of the curve where there is demand.

But our view is that tender issuance is becoming harder. We try to offer three or four maturities at each tender but some of the recent tender results have been inconsistent. We might not get enough bids in an individual maturity in some tenders and our bid-offer ratios are broadly lower, too. This probably shows that breadth of demand is lower and overall demand is less consistent than in previous years.

Some recent tenders have printed at prevailing secondary mid-levels and in others we might be 2-5 basis points wider. We will try to be accommodative and not truncate results – we would rather reward banks for participating in tenders, so if there is a slightly longer tail we tend to accept that tail on a tranche to reward participation.

It has certainly been harder over the past year from an issuer perspective. But the previous five years were a very conducive borrowing environment. Market conditions go through cycles and right now the environment is slightly more difficult, so we may need to start considering alternative mechanisms.

Direen Might these mechanisms include using the Australian MTN programme?

BUTCHER We could, but we probably won’t. The programme acts as an insurance policy that we can bring off the shelf if we need to. Given that issuing an offshore-currency bond would be more expensive than using our home-market advantage, our intention is not to use it. We have a reasonably large offshore investor base. This typically means investors that own LGFA bonds in New Zealand dollars will already have limits in place for LGFA bonds in different currencies.

The other consideration is that we are a funding conduit for councils that want to minimise their borrowing costs. They aren’t compelled to borrow through the LGFA. If we were to start issuing more expensive foreign-currency bonds and tried to pass these costs through to our borrowers, they would issue in the domestic market in their own names.

MARTIN Like 2017, market conditions in 2018 were relatively supportive for NZGB issuance. We have seen similar variation in tender results as what Mark Butcher describes. But on average we had close to a three-times bid-cover ratio throughout the year.

The bulk of our funding was issued via tender but we did complete one syndication in March. We had delayed this from late 2017, partly to allow investors to receive full information including the first half-year economic update from the new government.

JOHN Last year was one of Auckland Council’s quietest issuance periods since its establishment. Anecdotally, though, we heard market conditions were tougher. There was significant interest in our green bond, particularly from domestic investors, to the extent that final pricing was inside our secondary levels. Prior to this we had not issued domestically for nearly two years, which makes year-on-year comparison difficult.

Craig Have issuers made any changes to their investor-engagement strategies?

JOHN The simple answer is no, but that’s largely because we have been in a lighter issuance period. We engage with our offshore investors at particular times of the year and this didn’t change during 2018. We also continued to meet with domestic investors on a regular basis. We believe it is important to keep up the same level of investor engagement even when we aren’t issuing regularly or in significant volume.

BUTCHER In previous years we have had a target to increase our investor base by a certain percentage or volume. But it has become harder to grow offshore investor interest when LGFA bond yields have rallied 30 basis points and US Treasury yields have risen 50 basis points in the past year. Our focus has therefore been to retain investors rather than trying to grow the investor base.

We also changed our issuance strategy by offering a shorter-dated bond, as mentioned earlier, off the back of feedback from our banks and in response to investor demand.

One interesting point is that offshore investors increased their holdings of LGFA bonds in 2018 – though admittedly only by around NZ$200 million year-on-year. Nevertheless, as an overall percentage their holdings shrank because they didn’t keep pace with our level of issuance.

Our strategy is to find investors that have existing New Zealand dollar investments and convince them to switch into LGFA bonds. We generally find that our investors don’t come into the LGFA curve first – they will be holding some NZGBs or other New Zealand dollar bonds before making the switch.

HAGAN In general we very much support the comments being made by our peers. We focus on a long-term strategy with respect to investor engagement, making sure investors have as much information as possible – as opposed to reacting to changes in market conditions.

MARTIN We always seek to maintain existing investors while at the same time incrementally looking for new ones. When we discuss investor engagement, we not only think of meeting investors but also the information and research we provide them with.

In 2018, we provided investors with a new research piece called the New Zealand Government Securities Funding Strategy. The purpose of this is to be as transparent as possible around our funding strategy, so even those investors we can’t meet face-to-face can have the information they need about us.

“I have been expecting interest rates to rise every year for the past five and global equity markets to slow for the past three – and they haven’t. It seems like all asset markets are moving into a new era of low interest rates and we have slightly higher valuations in other asset classes.”

Craig How did Housing NZ find market conditions when it re-entered the market in 2018?

DIREEN We started with fortnightly tenders of commercial paper that we sustained through 2018. The outcomes were very strong throughout the first half of the year then gradually tapered off in the second.

This is consistent with what we saw through our bond syndications. Our first syndication, which was our debut dual-tranche deal, admittedly was in the ‘right’ part of the curve. We targeted the maturities where we’d expect to see most demand. We were very happy with how this transaction played out, including achieving around 12 per cent offshore participation.

When we returned to market for the curve extension in October, we got the sense that investor interest for New Zealand dollar product in general had waned somewhat. We didn’t see a material increase in new investor names and there was only a marginal uptick in offshore-investor interest. I think we would have seen more if conditions had remained the same or strengthened.

Offshore demand for Kauri transactions didn’t appear to be as robust in the second half of 2018 as it was in the first, and our experience in the market was consistent with this.

The LGFA’s level of offshore holdings, at around 40 per cent, is a good example of where Housing NZ might ultimately like to be. This will depend on the eventual funding need but at the very least we hope offshore demand will continue to rise.

Craig The LGFA has previously spoken about increased offshore holdings of LGFA bonds – both as a percentage of bonds on issue and also from the perspective of increased geographic diversity. Does the goal remain in place even as market conditions have shifted?

BUTCHER Offshore holdings increased to around 40 per cent from 15 per cent four years ago but are now back down to around 34 per cent. Although nominal offshore holdings increased, and their duration lengthened, because we had a record issuance year of NZ$1.6 billion for offshore investors to have maintained a 40 per cent holding they would have had to buy an additional NZ$400-500 million of bonds.

There are buyers and sellers. Not every offshore investor that was there at the end of 2018 had been there since the end of 2017. We saw some holders exit, partly for currency reasons or spread to US Treasuries – these were predominantly from North America. We saw others that continued to add to their holdings, putting money to work as they received proceeds from other New Zealand dollar maturities and coupons.

For the last four or five years the story has consistently been either that existing investors keep adding to their holdings or we build our investor base. Last year was a little different, in the sense that we didn’t get a whole lot of new investors coming in while some exited. The net effect was an increased nominal volume of holdings but not an increase in percentage terms.

Direen If we have the ability to line up our funding risk with our interest-rate risk via bond issuance, how does spread versus absolute yield come into it from a borrower perspective?

BUTCHER Many councils take floating funding with a fixed-rate overlay on top if required, so they are separating funding risk from interest-rate risk.

As part of their long-term plans the councils forecast an average interest cost for the next 10 years, and most have been forecasting a reduction in this cost. A couple of years ago the assumed cost of borrowing was around 5 per cent, but now most councils are forecasting a borrowing cost at least 50 basis points lower.

JOHN That’s correct. We separate our funding and hedging risks and get our fixed cover by putting swaps on top. This means spread between markets is a greater focus than absolute rates.

“When we returned to market in October, we got the sense that investor interest for New Zealand dollar product in general had waned somewhat. We didn’t see a material increase in new investor names and there was only a marginal uptick in offshore-investor interest.”

DEMAND DRIVERS

Craig Sam Direen, you mentioned that Housing NZ found some complementary offshore demand for its return to bond syndication. Where did this come from?

DIREEN There was a decent number of accounts from Asia and a small number from Europe. The fact that the offshore accounts that came into the book – especially in our first transaction – were investors we have visited was particularly encouraging. These were generally investors that were already familiar with the New Zealand story because they hold NZGBs or LGFA bonds.

BUTCHER When we first started issuing bonds, offshore interest was also at about the 10 per cent level. It takes time to grow the offshore investor base compared with domestic investors and banks. We also find that reaching NZ$500 million tranche size is when we start to attract greater participation from offshore investors. This is why we aim to reach this level of debt outstanding in a bond line as quickly as possible.

DIREEN We also heard this, particularly from investors in London. Our sense is they like our credit and the transaction had appeal but they really needed individual lines to be NZ$500 million or more before they would participate. This is consistent with our thinking about building our lines over time.

JOHN This also reflects feedback to Auckland Council that our euro issuance needed to be benchmark size. Given we already have two benchmark tranches on issue it does make us wonder whether we will continue to see the same pace of demand for Auckland Council bonds. But generally I think larger transaction sizes keep investors engaged.

Craig The April 2029 syndication received the largest-ever book for a NZGB bookbuild, which was at least in part attributed to substantial offshore demand. What drove this and how does it compare with the general offshore demand story – which, as we have discussed, was arguably somewhat weaker in 2018?

MARTIN The 2029 orderbook was nearly NZ$5 billion. However, book size is only one dimension we use in assessing the success of a syndication. We don’t provide detailed distribution statistics on our syndications but we do give an indication of Australasia versus the rest of the world. In our 2029 syndication the rest of the world was 58 per cent. This is not a record as our previous syndication had more than 80 per cent offshore investors – but it is a result that we are happy with.

We think the timing helped. The global backdrop was relatively stable in March and investors had enough information about the new government so were able to get comfortable around fiscal responsibility and strategy. They also took comfort from the new government’s reiteration of its commitment to maintain a minimum level of NZGBs on issue, equivalent to 20 per cent of GDP.

SUSTAINABLE DEBT

Craig Was increased offshore investor demand relative to vanilla transactions a feature of Auckland Council’s green bond?

JOHN We saw some new investors come into our books although these were domestic accounts – we actually had very little new offshore interest. In large part this was because of price. Some investors were interested because it was a green bond but found it hard to buy at the eventual pricing level. Other investors took a larger proportion of the transaction than they might otherwise have because it was a green bond.

Craig There has been just one domestic green-bond deal in New Zealand, from Auckland Council, and a single Kauri. Andrew John, can you reflect on your experience as a green-bond issuer – especially the conclusions you have drawn about demand for this asset class now and in future?

JOHN Auckland Council’s interest in green bonds goes back several years, during which time many banks talked to us about issuance. We started to have conversations with our sustainability team over the course of the preceding year, and what quickly became evident was that as an issuer we needed to take some leadership around sustainability and environmental issues. It was partly timing that drove us to look at a green bond, as our office is set to publish its climate-action plan later in 2019.

On the asset side, many of the investments we make can qualify as green. We have assets like water and public transport with considerable environmental impact. We chose electric trains for the first deal as these assets fit the criteria and can be ringfenced. We thought this approach would be prudent as this was our first green-bond issue. We chose to seek independent verification from EY and certification from Climate Bonds Initiative.

We went to market in June 2018. The feedback was tremendous and investors were very supportive. As a result, we got the transaction away at a tighter price than our secondary levels at the time. We also saw some new investors to Auckland Council bonds coming into the book.

The message we heard loud and clear from the domestic market was that there is insufficient green product to meet investor demand. At least part of what we wanted to achieve was to develop the market by supplying some product and generating interest in green bonds.

Japan matters

As a component of New Zealand offshore demand and a consistent source of support, Japan remains an important source of funding even though hedged and unhedged investors took a back seat in 2018.

CRAIG Over recent years we have seen the Japanese investor base emerge as a key component of international demand for Australian and New Zealand dollar debt. But challenges have emerged in the past year in particular. What observations do issuers have about the status of this demand in 2018 and going forward?

MARTIN When we look at Japan as a region we consider it to be a very mature investor base. There is consistent support from the Japanese institutional investor that is familiar with New Zealand as an investment destination. I don’t think this changed during 2018.

Even so, we have to accept that returns last year were not as attractive from a hedged investor perspective, and from an unhedged investor basis the decline in the New Zealand dollar relative to the yen was a concern to some.

Anecdotal feedback we have received is that mandates that are dependent on retail demand are probably less interested in New Zealand because retail investors continue to be yield-sensitive and New Zealand is no longer as high-yielding an investment as it has been in the past.

KIM MARTIN

We have to accept that returns last year were not as attractive from a hedged investor perspective, and from an unhedged investor basis the decline in the New Zealand dollar relative to the Japanese yen was a concern to some.

KIM MARTIN NEW ZEALAND DEBT MANAGEMENT

Craig Other high-grade issuers in New Zealand presumably have suitable assets for green-bond issuance. But we are also aware that – locally and internationally – there are very different views on the value of the product at issuer level. What is the current state of thinking among New Zealand borrowers?

BUTCHER We have a clear mandate from our shareholders, who are also our largest borrowers. This requires us to focus on providing cheaper funding cost, longer tenor of debt and certainty of market access.

We know the cost of green-bond issuance, but the financial benefits remain uncertain. Given LGFA is already a funding conduit, we would have to add a second layer of certification – and cost – onto our loans to council borrowers. I also don’t see much evidence to date of an issuer being able to lengthen duration via green bonds. Finally, it is unlikely the pricing we could achieve would be a significant improvement on our current cost of borrowing.

LGFA will move quickly into the green space if we see a compelling reason to do so. It is a financial decision about delivering the best outcome for our council borrowers. For now, we don’t feel a green bond will deliver this.

I think green bonds haven’t taken off in New Zealand because we are a small capital market lacking significant scale. There are not many issuers, very few have sizeable funding programmes and we don’t have notable sector diversity.

Most corporate issuers in New Zealand that could issue green bonds are already issuing at relatively low funding cost so there are few economic incentives for issuers.

HAGAN The question is whether the diversity is worth the cost. It is only when a transaction is complete that these merits can be truly assessed.

JOHN Verification and certification costs are largely insignificant in the grand scheme of things. We believed these costs to be justified based on the value we would extract from issuing a green bond. However, I take the point that it adds cost for an issuer like LGFA because the LGFA passes those costs on to its council borrowers.

HAGAN Many of Mark Butcher’s comments resonate with me. Clearly the role of government is to enhance wellbeing. Social and environmental outcomes are a big part of this, but we need to balance this with the more traditional factors important to a debt issuer. We continuously think about noncore products, following market developments and assessing costs and benefits – in whatever format these come.

We have provided advice to the government on the merits of green bonds as part of the core Crown funding portfolio. We have split this into two issues: the pure economics of debt issuance as measured against our traditional mandate of funding the government at low cost over the long term with due consideration for risk, and the wider benefits green-bond issuance can provide.

Against the traditional mandate there are several factors that require careful consideration, including the additional costs of issuance – for example the cost of setup and monitoring. Investor diversification and the impacts on liquidity of existing NZGBs are also of interest. The differential isn’t enough, purely from a pricing perspective, to convince us either way.

Having said this, there is a real question about whether government issuance of green bonds would provide environmental and signalling benefits and crowd private-sector capital into environmental projects. This judgement will be made by the government, but it is one we will continue to assess and provide advice on. At this stage, though, green bonds do not form part of our issuance strategy.

DIREEN Last year we were new to market and therefore focused on building curves and relationships. We parked to one side considerations around things like foreign-currency programmes, green bonds and the like.

But it is hard not to take notice when we see New South Wales Treasury Corporation’s A$1.8 billion (US$1.3 billion) green bond and Auckland Council’s entry to the New Zealand green-bond market, so we are having another look at this now.

Housing NZ has recently developed an environment strategy which aims to reduce the impact of our operations, our build programme and our assets on the natural environment. It’s an interesting area for us to be exploring.

BUTCHER New Zealand is also not a developing country that lacks engagement with green or environmental issues to the point where a focus on green financing would change our behaviours significantly from a policy perspective.

Electric trains are a great example of an asset that could have been financed by other means than green bonds. I don’t think the availability of green bonds provides financing that wasn’t already available – these were likely already in Auckland Council’s long-term plan and would have been funded one way or another. They just happened to be suitable for a green label.

JOHN The purpose was to focus on funding projects that are suitable for green funding and to make the most of the innovation that is there to solve the sustainability issues facing Auckland.

HAGAN This applies from a central-government perspective, too. The money government spends is driven by its fiscal strategy. As a debt issuer we are not constrained by access to funding. But this doesn’t negate any potential benefits of signalling, externalities and so forth.

“Reporting creates some discipline. It adds more rigour and more weight to our view that green-bond issuance is just one element of how we look at sustainability across the council as a whole.”

Direen Did Auckland Council sacrifice investor diversification for a better pricing outcome in its green bond?

JOHN The investors that were very keen were happy with the price. The final book could have been more diverse but to achieve this would have required a much higher price point. We landed with the level of diversification we wanted – and what we had to give up for diversification we believe we can justify from a price perspective.

The challenge we have is that, much as they like the concept, investors in New Zealand still have a price point where they are comfortable. We landed at a level where we were comfortable with diversification and price.

Craig It’s interesting that perspectives on green bonds are so different among relatively similar issuers. Is this just a matter of issuers drawing different conclusions based on the same inputs or is there something more fundamental at play?

DIREEN One of the key differences between a funding conduit, like the LGFA, and an organisation such as Housing NZ is the ability for financing decisions to drive additional commercial discipline through the business. Being able to go to the business and say we plan to report on these important aspects and that investors are monitoring this reporting could provide an additional layer of accountability, which holds some appeal.

JOHN Reporting creates some discipline and Auckland’s sustainability action plan shone a spotlight on innovations and technologies. It adds more rigour and more weight to our view that green-bond issuance is just one element of how we look at sustainability across the council as a whole.

DIREEN The reintroduction of inflation-linked bonds provides a good example of market development in a comparable sense. This came at a time when there wasn’t significant demand for inflation-linked securities compared with the pre-crisis market, and we thought the market might have developed a bit more than it has to date.

However, what we’ve seen with environmental, social and governance-related issuance is that momentum is structural – it’s global and it’s building a lot in Australia and now New Zealand too. I think there’s a difference from a market-development standpoint.